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#573784 - 09/10/10 10:33 AM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: Leli]
gemcat Offline

The Florentine Diamond

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 5107
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Back in the day, my vet recommended having my male German Shepherd neutered at 6 months and I followed his advice. My breeder was appalled and said I should have waited until he was at least 18 months so as to not inhibit his growth. She said he needed the rush of hormones to reach his potential.
When he broke 100 lbs at less than a year old, I wrote her back and said, "Heaven help us if he had "reached his potential". I couldn't have afforded the food bill.

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#573785 - 09/10/10 10:41 AM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: sparklee]
BeMyValentine Offline
Omniscient

Registered: 04/23/09
Posts: 2938
Loc: London, UK
Yea he says that he has no problems neutering him if that is what we want but he believes it isnt needed... I don't know really...he is my first dog...he is a small breed. His breed is known to have seperation anxiety (seriously wish I knew that before LOL) but I think my mother (I had to leave him with her - he completely adores my mom) is scared he will become a lap dog after getting neutered...he is 4 years old now and he is not as energetic as he was.

I've asked her to speak to the vet about it again though...

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#573786 - 09/10/10 10:41 AM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: gemcat]
Leli Offline
Mentor

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 811
LOL, gemcat

We're looking at 110 right now with our puppy, according to his growth so far. If it weren't for Berners' joint issues, we'd prefer for him to not reach his potential either! He's already an eating machine!

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#573790 - 09/10/10 11:26 AM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: gemcat]
sparklee Offline
The Millenium Star

Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 7888
Loc: My house
 Originally Posted By: gemcat
My breeder was appalled and said I should have waited until he was at least 18 months so as to not inhibit his growth. She said he needed the rush of hormones to reach his potential.



That's actually been shown to be incorrect. One of the white papers that my vet gave me to read was about a veterinary study that followed 100 dogs of various breeds. One of each breed was neutered/spayed before 6 months, one of each at 2 years. The difference in growth was negligible, and was often found to be the result of the percentage of calcium and protein in the dogs diet, not the neutering process.

And another interesting study showed that neutering/spaying at a young age actually caused the bones of puppies to grow for a longer period of time than those who were not, so that they actually grew a little bigger, although not "bulkier". Something to do with the growth plates and their testosterone/estrogen levels.

The only time you would want to neuter/spay later, is if you want the added bulk, aggression (not always a bad thing) and prey drive that is created by the androgens for use in schutzhund, tracking and other dog sports.

Basically, the study concluded that early neutering doesn't stunt the animals growth. All it does is prevent the development of masculine characteristics. Then of course, there is the school of thought that says any form of sterilization is detrimental to the animal. Nature gave them gonads, so leave them with their gonads!!!

A Google search will bring up a lot of very good articles and white papers. You just have to be careful who wrote the articles 'cause everyone has an opinion. ;\)

I think it all comes down to what you want from your dog, and your opinions on the subject.




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#573794 - 09/10/10 11:50 AM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: sparklee]
tricksi Offline

The Florentine Diamond

Registered: 09/13/04
Posts: 5911
Loc: is everything
My husband (before we married) had a male dog that sometimes would jump on the smaller neighbor kids, knock them down and hump them. He was a good dog and was never agressive or mean but come on, totally unacceptable. My husband kinda let it be until one day he was in the backyard, jabbed a nail through his foot, passed out in pain, to only wake a bit later to find his dog having his way with him. Between the pain and a 100 pound dog straddling him, he couldn't do much until the dog was all finished. \:o \:D

Needless to say, within a few days, the dog was at the Vets getting snipped.


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#573796 - 09/10/10 12:13 PM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: tricksi]
Leli Offline
Mentor

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 811
Thanks for the info sparklee! I don't know about that recent research. Maybe the breeder and vet recommended us not to neuter him so he doesn't grow for a longer period of time? All I know is that Berners are notorious for their joint issues, and the breeder said to make sure we don't feed him puppy food because he'll grow too fast and too much or something like that. But this all just makes me think about all the different advice and suggestions about raising children; it all just boils down to what you think is best. \:\)

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#573799 - 09/10/10 01:52 PM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: Leli]
sparklee Offline
The Millenium Star

Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 7888
Loc: My house
 Originally Posted By: Leli
All I know is that Berners are notorious fr their joint issues, and the breeder said to make sure we don't feed him puppy food because he'll grow too fast and too much or something like that.



I've never fed Shaka puppy food either. That has to do with the calcium levels. High levels of calcium increase the risk of skeletal problems. Many large boned dogs, or those with larger frames can develop lameness and bowed legs if fed too much calcium. Most responsible breeders of at risk dogs will recommend against puppy food.

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#573802 - 09/10/10 02:28 PM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: sparklee]
Leli Offline
Mentor

Registered: 01/15/09
Posts: 811
Thanks! I knew it had something to do with bone development \:\)

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#573803 - 09/10/10 02:28 PM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: sparklee]
gemcat Offline

The Florentine Diamond

Registered: 04/17/05
Posts: 5107
Loc: San Antonio, TX
With my GSD, I fed him "puppy" food until 6 months, then switched to adult food. I have read about the growth plate issue, too. Lobo did get to be taller than GSD standard, but then so did all 4 males in his litter. Not all of them were neutered early, either.
When my breeder brought up the "hormone" issue, she mentioned the schutzhund aspect. I questioned if the hormones really play such an important role since females don't have the testosterone rush and make excellent working dogs.

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#573812 - 09/10/10 03:09 PM Re: Puppy took "that" drive to the vet this morning! [Re: gemcat]
sparklee Offline
The Millenium Star

Registered: 03/27/03
Posts: 7888
Loc: My house
 Originally Posted By: gemcat
When my breeder brought up the "hormone" issue, she mentioned the schutzhund aspect. I questioned if the hormones really play such an important role since females don't have the testosterone rush and make excellent working dogs.



That is a very good question!

I called a very knowledgeable friend who used to breed American Staffordshire terriers, and who now competes in tracking and agility with her female dogs. The answer I got is that sex hormones are not responsible for prey drive, a high prey drive is genetic, not hormone driven. While testosterone does give the male dog a more "competitive" edge to the prey drive, it's not the sole reason they're good working dogs.

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