#740425 - 05/07/1208:35 PM6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
labelo
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Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
It's been nearly 7 months, but my quest to create the perfect engagement ring is at its end! I thought I'd make a post outlining the entire creation process, from initially choosing a sim to the final product, to give a little insight to others who might be curious about the custom process. Feel free to skip all the boring novel and just stare at the pretty pictures
Choosing a Sim: I stumbled on sims quite by accident. I had fallen in love with the Tiffany Legacy (but not the Tiffany price) and so I was searching for inexpensive Legacy reproductions and stumbled upon MoCo's version. From there I found the BTD boards and the rest is history! After a week of research (and a couple more of convincing my boyfriend) I decided that Amora-enhanced moissanite was the right choice for me. I've never been stuck on the idea of a diamond (I'd previously considered both sapphire and ruby), I liked the environmental/ethical advantages of moissy, and the price point meant that I could get my forever ring now instead of getting something I was only sort of happy with now and then upgrade down the road. Because I wanted this ring to be my forever ring, I decided against Asha, as I wanted to minimize the risk of damaging the stone. Initially I thought I might one day replace my moissanite with diamond, but now I'm quite convinced that if I ever do replace it, it will be with the Amora Gem (and then only if in an antique cushion cut)!
Choosing a Stone: I've never been a fan of the traditional round or even princess. I liked asschers, but they were not available in moissanite. I also liked ovals, but my boyfriend didn't like them and when I first began planning my ring it was not available in an Amora-enhanced version. I then fell in love with cushions, especially chunky antique style ones like the ACC. Unfortunately, a moissy version of the ACC didn't work out and after considering compromising with an Asha or OEC, I decided to go with a regular cushion. Hopefully there will one day be an Amora Gem AVC that I can consider trading up for. I deliberated on size FOREVER. When I thought I wanted a solitaire I leaned toward a 7-7.5mm because I wanted a decent amount of finger coverage. When I looked at what my friends have (.5-1ct), however, I realized that I would feel very uncomfortable wearing such a significantly larger stone. A more realistic and believable size was the 6mm (1.1ct) size that I finally chose, and I achieved some extra finger coverage with a halo. Now my ring is definitely on the larger side, but it's still something that a couple of college students might possibly have been able to afford.
Choosing a Design/Inspiration: This was BY FAR the most drawn-out and lengthy part of my quest for the perfect ring. As I said before, my first love was the Tiffany Legacy, but as I began looking at more designs and saw more rings both online and in person, my tastes evolved. I decided the halo on the Legacy was too bulky for my liking, and a trip to a couple of brick-and-mortar jewelry stores taught me that my boyfriend preferred chunkier settings with wider bands. My "wish list" included some sort of split shank, halo, milgrain, claw prongs, and a pretty profile. I found that I loved the style of antique and antique-inspired jewelry, but though I searched for months I found nothing that made my heart sing (except for Leon's tapered french cut setting, but there was no way for my budget to accommodate that!). I scoured PS, BTD, Ebay, and just about every online retailer and manufacturer I could find UNTIL I stumbled across this setting: By altering the profile in the style of this ring for a slightly higher profile to accommodate a straight band: And modeling the halo and prongs after this ring:
I was able to create the perfect ring! I also chose, after some deliberation, unplated 14k white gold for my ring. I like the warmth and antique feel of unplated gold, and I loved that I wouldn’t have to bother getting it rhodium plated. The only problem was finding someone who could create a quality custom piece on my very limited budget.
Choosing a Jeweler: I have to give some credit here to Beth at Schubach - she was the first person I contacted about custom work and was extremely gracious and helpful as I stumbled around trying to narrow down the perfect design. Although their custom work is quite reasonable for the quality pieces they create, in the end I was unable to get exactly what I wanted on my rather limited budget.
Enter David Klass. Everything people have said about him is true - he's incredibly easy to work with, accommodating, quick to respond to emails, and outrageously reasonable with his prices. When I added some design elements that increased the overall cost of the ring, he was quick to make suggestions of how to keep costs down and in budget. To put it simply, he was able to make the ring of my dreams for 60% the price of retail of the inspiration ring, and with better craftsmanship. Every other jeweler I asked quoted me at least twice what he did. I really only have one complaint about the custom design process with DK – it took longer than he’d originally said for the ring to be cast/set. Apparently, David’s popularity on the boards means that he’s been inundated with custom requests. I don’t know, but it’s my guess that he might have taken a little too much on recently, and though he works very hard and long hours to keep up with orders (most of the time he replied to my emails around midnight my time, which was 10:00pm his time!), he’s still at the mercy of how fast his casters/setters work. Perhaps I was too accommodating (I always said “there’s no rush” and didn’t have a firm date that I needed the ring to be finished by), but if you need your piece by a certain date you need to be sure to EMPHASIZE that so he can stay on top of your order and make sure it moves along. Anyhoo, I was originally told the ring would be done May 1, received a very apologetic email on May 2 telling me that the ring was currently being set by his “best setter,” who unfortunately also has a tendency to be a bit slow, and that I would have pictures by Friday, May 4. I actually got pictures the following Monday, May 7. To help make up for it, David overnighted the ring at no cost to me. I didn’t mind the extra wait, I just hated anticipating having the ring by a certain date and then having to wait even longer.
The Design Process: I began by sending David my inspiration pics and video, along with a description of which parts of each ring I wanted in my own, my ring size, the type of metal I wanted, and the stats on my center stone:
He sent a quote, made a couple of design suggestions, and once I agreed, started work on a CAD. He had the first CADs to me within a week:
After viewing the first CADS I made a few changes. Don't be afraid to make changes to the CAD! It's a whole lot easier than trying to make changes after the ring is cast - let your jeweler know what you want and don't stop until it's exactly how you want it. I told David that I wanted the halo to be more square and circled parts of the CADs around the basket that I wanted changed, sent a brief description of the changes I wanted, and sent pictures of a ring I'd found that was similar to what I was describing. Pictures and/or drawings, even if not very good, are ALWAYS better than words. Vocabulary can be different or confusing, but pictures don't lie. He had the changes to the CADs back to me within one business day:
David had successfully changed everything I'd asked him to, but there was still something about the basket that didn't seem right, so I sent him another picture and had him tweak it once more, making the basket rounder, more like a bowl. Again, he had the changes back within one business day:
This was the final CAD, and once it was completed I gave my approval for David to go ahead and cast the ring! It took about 5 weeks for the entire casting process, and the ring was not done until a week after he’d originally said it would be, but the wait was well worth it!
And, without further ado, here are the pictures of my dream engagement ring:
Ring Specs: 4.7 grams of 14k unplated white gold Size 6.5 6mm/1.1 ct Amora-enhanced Cushion (color "I") .7ct H VS2/SI1 round brilliant diamond sidestones
I'll have handshots up as soon as my boyfriend officially proposes. In fact, I won't even see the ring in person until then! He's been super sweet about allowing me to design my own ring, so I figure I can compromise and let him keep a tiny element of surprise
Edit: I will also happily solicit wedding band suggestions. I think with the design tweaks I made that a straight band will be able to sit somewhat flush.
I bow to you, labelo. Your complete start-to-finish description of the process, your clarity and organization of the info, your visual aids, your open honesty about costs and unexpected delays, your level head........... tell your boyfriend to move over because *I* want to marry you!
What a beautiful ring. I really enjoyed reading your details about going custom made. I completely understand, as I have been also having something custom made for the last 7 months.
I am looking forward to hearing your engagement story and seeing hand shots!
#740457 - 05/07/1209:50 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
labelo
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Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
Thank you for all the kind words! I'm glad that you guys are enjoying the post - about half way through I was like, "What am I doing?! No one wants to read 17 kajillion pages of your rambling about a piece of jewelry!" but I figured I might as well finish what I'd started. I can only hope that it can help others who are working their way through the world of custom jewelry even a fraction of the amount that all of the wonderful posters on these boards have helped me!
I am very very happy for you, and it looks so much like the inspiration ring, except perhaps a bit more square, which is just what you wanted
I also enjoyed reading it all! If you don't mind sharing, from start to finish (including finding the perfect inspiration rings, to this moment) how long did it take?
#740529 - 05/08/1206:55 AMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
labelo
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@Kat - well, I joined the forum back on October 4, and I'd been lurking for a couple weeks prior, so that's about 7.5 months. My first posts on the boards were about AD's version of the Asscher-set Legacy, and I didn't even consider going custom until December. If I'd started my search a bit later, once the Amora Gem Asscher was out, I probably would have gotten it without any thought, but we didn't want Asha. I think I sent my first quote request to Beth in early December (for a completely different style ring). After jcent got her pretty ruby solitaire I shot a quote request to DK and that's when I realized that with his prices I could afford pave and pretty much anything else I wanted. Around that time I also pre-ordered a moissy ACC through MoCo. Unfortunately, C&C decided to greatly increase the volume needed to make a custom cut order, so after sitting in limbo for a couple months I realized that I needed to compromise and pick something else. I bought my Amora cushion on March 1, got a finalized quote from DK on March 17, and the ring was completed on May 7.
#740829 - 05/08/1205:22 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
Olivejuice
Connoisseur
Registered: 02/16/12
Posts: 1515
Loc: East Coast
Originally Posted By: labelo
@Kat - well, I joined the forum back on October 4, and I'd been lurking for a couple weeks prior, so that's about 7.5 months. My first posts on the boards were about AD's version of the Asscher-set Legacy, and I didn't even consider going custom until December. If I'd started my search a bit later, once the Amora Gem Asscher was out, I probably would have gotten it without any thought, but we didn't want Asha. I think I sent my first quote request to Beth in early December (for a completely different style ring). After jcent got her pretty ruby solitaire I shot a quote request to DK and that's when I realized that with his prices I could afford pave and pretty much anything else I wanted. Around that time I also pre-ordered a moissy ACC through MoCo. Unfortunately, C&C decided to greatly increase the volume needed to make a custom cut order, so after sitting in limbo for a couple months I realized that I needed to compromise and pick something else. I bought my Amora cushion on March 1, got a finalized quote from DK on March 17, and the ring was completed on May 7.
LOL this would be the version I would have written after going in 20 directions, being side tracked and timing out on my computer LOL.
Love love love the ring and the info. Thanks so much!
I remember you posting right around the time I did when I chose to go with David. I am waiting for mine, it's supposed to be done this week. I've been so good about not being impatient but I'm quickly reaching my limit since it's so close to the end. Everytime I log onto my email I do a shot of vodka LOL jk.
#740862 - 05/08/1206:21 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
Joolsie Petunia
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Registered: 02/14/12
Posts: 570
Loc: Joolsie's World
Beautiful! I loveI don't know how I missed this. I love the "side loops" in the shank. Idk how i missed this on the boards earlier today! I can't wait for you to get it/the engagement!!
That was great to read the backstory on the ring. It looks gorgeous, too! Is it exactly like you had envisioned with all the changes you requested done to the inspiration ring?
#740906 - 05/08/1207:35 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
labelo
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Loc: US
@Olive - I hope your ring is finished soon! It's silly, but for the last couple of weeks every time I'd check my email I'd get little heart flutters, hoping for an update. I suppose I lead a pretty tame life if my greatest excitement is updates on a sparklie
@Kanga - I know, I love them too! Maybe hearts are a bit cheesy, but they just seemed so appropriate for an ering. Will BellaRoo version 2 have the heart undergallery again?
@borismom - I'm not necessarily all about the bling either, but I figured that since this is probably the nicest, most expensive piece of jewelry I'll ever own, I should go all out! I probably won't ever have the budget again for this sort of pave. I'm flattered that you like it, since I know that your taste tends to be on the simple, yet gorgeously sleek side.
And thanks to the rest of you for all your sweet comments! Rest assured, I'll be a good sparkle sister and have handshots up as soon as it's on my finger!
#740909 - 05/08/1207:37 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
labelo
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Loc: US
@Little_Bit - From the pictures I've seen, yes. Once I'm able to see it in person I'll be able to comment more on how the ideas translated into the actual ring. I'm very, very pleased with it from what I can see!
#741110 - 05/09/1210:15 AMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
labelo
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Can I just take a minute to marvel at how amazingly fast UPS overnight is? The ring got picked up at 6:37pm yesterday in Los Angeles and arrived in a small town in West TN at 9:54 this morning.
Now, given, I do live only 1.5 hours from Memphis, a major UPS hub, but STILL!
I handed the box over to Derek this morning. So painful, but I'm glad to keep a little bit of surprise before the proposal.
#741149 - 05/09/1211:15 AMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: flashfrenzy]
labelo
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Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: flashfrenzy
He better not drag this out for suspense purposes. ;P
I hope not! I graduate from university on Saturday and both our families will be here. I'm pretty sure that's when he's planning to do the whole traditional asking my dad for my hand thing. Then we're visiting his folks for a week before we head to different states for the summer for internships/work, so I feel like it will be soon? I'm trying not to think too much about it because I don't want to ruin his surprise, but the sparkle monster inside of me wants it to happen soon!
labelo
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Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
We're officially engaged! Here are a few pics taken hastily between calling family and friends to tide you guys over. Fancy photo shoot and story to come tomorrow when there's sun outside
Hearty congratulations to you labelo, and to Mr. labelo, too! You and your ring are both beautiful and glowing. Enjoy this part of the ride. We're all looking forward to the proposal story.
#743853 - 05/18/1207:45 AMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
labelo
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Pictures are uploading, so here's the story while I wait. A little background on the story: I graduated from college on Saturday and my parents came from out of state. FH and his family live nearby, and this was the first time the two families met. They loved each other, had a great time, etc. FH then took my parents out for coffee/dessert that afternoon and asked for my hand. My mother, who is normally a very proper, reserved person, nearly climbed over the front seat of her car to hug me when they met back up with me and blabbed "Guess what? Derek thinks he wants to marry you!" as soon as I got in the car. Gee, mom! Hope he wasn't trying to keep it a surprise! Anyway, needless to say, my mom was uber excited and wanted to start calling people and telling them right away, but I had to remind her that WE WEREN'T EVEN ENGAGED YET and swear her to silence.
So, ever since then I've been giving FH a hard time, joking that he better propose soon or my mom just might explode with anticipation. He had me completely convinced, however, that a proposal wasn't coming for at least a month, and I was sure it would come when we went to the beach in July. FH also likes to tell me all the time about how when his cousin was getting married he would "fake propose" to his girlfriend all the time, saying something really romantic and then bending down... to tie his shoe. FH just thought that was so funny and cool, and I was convinced that he was going to fake propose to me too. We're about to be in separate states for internships/jobs for the summer, so tonight was our last big date night. We spent the day at the zoo, which was a blast, and then got dressed up and went out to my favorite restaurant for dinner. After a near mishap (we BOTH forgot our phones in the restaurant, we're hopeless, we know, but luckily the server picked them up for us) we headed to downtown Nashville for ice cream and ate it at dusk down by the river. At this point I made a joke about how I couldn't believe he was missing the opportunity to use this picturesque scene at the river for a fake proposal. He said "You're right, let's practice," grabbed my hand, said all sorts of sweet things, and then fumbled around in his pocket. At this point I still thought he was playing with me, even when he got down on one knee. It wasn't until I heard the words "Will you marry me?" and saw the ring that I realized he was actually proposing! Even then, I'm pretty sure the first words out of my mouth were "Is this for real?" Eventually I said "Yes, of course!" I told him later that I wouldn't have joked so much about proposing if I had actually thought it was coming soon (and definitely not that night!), but he said it was perfect, because it made it that much more of a surprise for me. It was simple, sweet, and a little bit funny, which is totally us. We don't have a date set in stone, but we're looking at early Summer 2013.
labelo
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Jewelry is so hard to photograph! The ring looks so much more delicate in real life. All of the melee is super sparkly, not dull and dark like it looks in some of the photos, but all the sparkle was making it tough to get a good picture so I had to purposefully go in worse lighting to get a half decent image!
#743856 - 05/18/1208:13 AMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: labelo]
labelo
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So now that I actually have the ring I can give a more accurate review.
The setting is beautiful. I've never seen anything in real life that I thought was more beautiful. David was able to take my pictures and ideas and create a piece that was just as I imagined. All the elements I requested are there, and I think it's more beautiful than the inspiration pics. Obviously, it doesn't look 100% like the inspiration rings. It's not a perfect replica, but you can't expect a replica when you're working with a different designer and different proportions. But, it's true to the design and feel that I wanted, and I'm very happy. The only thing I would change (and this is extremely minor) is that I would make all the edges of the ring and the band more rounded and soft. DK's style tends to be a bit more modern and square. That's really more of an oversight on my part, and like I said, it's extremely minor, and I think it's beautiful just as is. I'm very, very happy with the look of the ring.
The milgrain, pave settng, claw prongs - everything is impeccable! I'm sure somewhere out there could find a flaw with it, but it looks perfect to me, and I've been staring at it for hours!
As far as non-workmanship related things go, I love the way it looks on my hand. It looks HUGE, but not fake huge. The halo gives it so much more oomph, and I'm so glad I decided to go with it instead of a solitare. Now I have the finger coverage and bling I want while being able to say the ring is "about a carat." The ring has a very substantial presence on my hand (though it does look more delicate IRL than in these picture), but it's still relatively low set and the antique touches keep it from looking bulky or heavy.
I could not be pleased with the ring and the wonderful man it represents.
Holy-cow!!! Your story is just sooooo sweet! I was on the edge of my seat! Thanks for sharing your engagement story, your lovely photos (beautiful couple!) and of course, the glamour shots of your AMAZING ring! That's just gorgeous on your hand---it turned out so, so, beautifully!
Congratulations! The ring is GORGEOUS!!! And it was wonderful to share your story. So many people have questions/concerns about Moissy and custom work. Your post will help a lot of people.
FH also likes to tell me all the time about how when his cousin was getting married he would "fake propose" to his girlfriend all the time, saying something really romantic and then bending down... to tie his shoe. FH just thought that was so funny and cool, and I was convinced that he was going to fake propose to me too.
OMG my SO has been doing this to me right now. ughhhhhh.
anyways, i absolutely adore your ring. it is DIVINE. congratulations!!
Thank you! Thank you!! Thank you!!! I am beginning this process with David right now for our my second ring from him, and your post was so very, very helpful!! You are so sweet to do this for us. Who wouldn't want to read a kajillion bits of priceless info on custom diamond rings??!! Just gorgeous!!
Oh shoot, I'm late to the party again, but I wanted to wish you a hearty congratulations on your engagement Labelo! You two look so happy together, and your ring is stunning.
Wow I love that ring! It is so unique and timeless at the same time. :-) And I think you will have just a tiny gap between your wedder and ering, which is perfect in my opinion! I love a smidge of a gap so that you can see both rings, instead of one side of the ering looking a little preggers. Lol Plus, I just wanted to say that it was so sweet of your fiance to give you so much freedom with your ring and you were very good to take his opinions into accunt too. It shows that you two are definitely ready for the whole marriage thing! Best of luck to you!
Ring Specs: 4.7 grams of 14k unplated white gold Size 6.5 6mm/1.1 ct Amora-enhanced Cushion (color "I") .7ct H VS2/SI1 round brilliant diamond sidestones
No effin' joke, labelo - this is ALMOST my dream ring. I LOVE IT! My only changes would be the split shank, where you have the slightly raised section in the middle on both sides, mine would be open; and the diamonds around the bottom of the basket and the raised "wraparound" bands (where the pave ends) would be sapphires. Would you be horribly offended/annoyed/any bad feelings if I showed this to BF and explained that I would die if he had "my version" made for me when he's ready to propose?
#782285 - 09/25/1208:11 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: KTR]
labelo
Mentor
Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: KTR
No effin' joke, labelo - this is ALMOST my dream ring. I LOVE IT! My only changes would be the split shank, where you have the slightly raised section in the middle on both sides, mine would be open; and the diamonds around the bottom of the basket and the raised "wraparound" bands (where the pave ends) would be sapphires. Would you be horribly offended/annoyed/any bad feelings if I showed this to BF and explained that I would die if he had "my version" made for me when he's ready to propose?
CONGRATS ON THE ENGAGEMENT!
Go for it! Everyone deserves their dream ring, and if showing mine to your BF would help you get it, then by all means show him!
#782304 - 09/25/1208:47 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: Jezebel]
labelo
Mentor
Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Jezebel
Is there a design kinda like this on moissaniteco? I love this!!!
Jezebel, I'm not sure. I do know that MoCo introduced a couple of new split-shank designs recently. The inspiration rings were both from Gabriel and Co, who provides mounts to a number of retailers, but I don't think MoCo's one of them.
#782313 - 09/25/1208:57 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: JuBe]
joules1969
Ashaholic
Registered: 06/26/12
Posts: 332
Loc: England
Originally Posted By: JuBe
That was one of the best posts I've read here in terms of quality of information. Thank you for taking the time to write and post your journey.
In total agreement with JuBe, fascinating from start to finish!!!! May I say I think your choice of ring is exquisite !!! How very proud you will feel everytime you glance down
Congratulations for the engagement AND the great piece of journalism !!!
_________________________
If I ever get the urge to exercise, I lie down until the feeling passes!
Your ring is so beautiful! I've got a question for you about the unplated WG. How much warmth does it have? From the pics it looks almost like regular WG, just not quite as shiny. I am having a setting being done by DK right now and it is going to be done in unplated WG as well, and I'm hoping for a more warm/yellow-y tone to it. So I'm just wondering if yours has that and it's not coming through in the photos, or if I need to get in touch with him to discuss the alloy he uses so I can make sure to get the look I'm hoping to achieve.
#794803 - 11/27/1208:34 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: luckyb]
labelo
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Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: luckyb
Your ring is so beautiful! I've got a question for you about the unplated WG. How much warmth does it have? From the pics it looks almost like regular WG, just not quite as shiny. I am having a setting being done by DK right now and it is going to be done in unplated WG as well, and I'm hoping for a more warm/yellow-y tone to it. So I'm just wondering if yours has that and it's not coming through in the photos, or if I need to get in touch with him to discuss the alloy he uses so I can make sure to get the look I'm hoping to achieve.
To be honest, I don't notice much warmth. I *think* he might use an alloy that is whiter than regular unplated white gold (I vaguely remember someone mentioning that on the boards), so if you're wanting a warm tone I'd be sure to talk to him about that.
#794804 - 11/27/1208:38 PMRe: 6mm Amora cushion in antique-style pave halo setting by DK
[Re: LaLa86]
labelo
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Registered: 10/04/11
Posts: 803
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: LaLa86
Oh my gosh, I love it! Labelo, I am a total Harry Potter nerd myself and have read each book at least four times. This is so cute.
I'm glad you like it! I was about Harry's age when each of the books came out, so we sort of "grew up together." I've read each an embarrassing number of times and dressed up for the last couple of book/movie premieres. It was just one of those fun things I got to relive/share with my old school friends when we'd be home for the summer from college, you know? I even convinced FH to come to one, even though he's not nearly as much of a geek as I am. We did a whole series in the local library and when our photographer wanted to use a book as a prop this chapter immediately popped into my head! Just perfect!
18k white gold, unplated, is more yellow as it has more gold and less nickle.
Originally Posted By: labelo
To be honest, I don't notice much warmth. I *think* he might use an alloy that is whiter than regular unplated white gold (I vaguely remember someone mentioning that on the boards), so if you're wanting a warm tone I'd be sure to talk to him about that.